It is the time of Kalinouskis and Kasciushkas in Belarus today.
The other day the famous Belarusian film director
Jury Khashchavatski
brought his documentary “Common president” to Warsaw. Back in 1997 he
warned the world of the danger of Lukashenka’s dictatorship, but few
listened to the warnings.
Today the world is harvesting the fruit of its short-sighted policy, Jury Khashchavatski says in an interview to the
charter97.org web-site’s chief editor
Natalia Radzina.
- Mr. Khashchavatski, last time we met was 3.5 years ago on the day I was released from prison…
- You have remained just as beautiful. I have grown older. But you all do well. I admire you.
-
I very well remember our latest meeting, you very much supported me
then. What do you recollect from those dreadful times, when so many
people ended up in jail after the presidential elections?
-
Between us, I still feel shame, because due to my health (I am
asthmatic, I suffocate when it is freezing) I could not go to the Square
manifestation. My friends got jailed. I felt so ashamed I was not with
them!
I came to you and
Dzima Bandarenka as soon as you got
released also because when my legs got broken in 1997, who came and
supported me morally and physically? Exactly you! So why talk about
this… We must always be together: fight, get kicked, go to jail, get
released and get victorious.
- You were attacked, beaten and
got your legs broken in 1997 right after the release of the “Common
president” film. The other day you showed this documentary in Warsaw in
the framework of the events on the occasion of the International day of
solidarity with Belarus. Did you think then that in 17 year Lukashenka
would still be in power?
- No, by no means. I was a bad
prophet in this sense. I would always say: “He will last half a year, he
will last a year…”. I would always go wide of the mark. I did not take
into consideration, how strongly the dictator was supported by Russia,
despite Putin hating him and he hates Putin.
I did not understand
it then, which I regret, because I got many misled by speaking it would
all end soon. No, this has not ended, this keeps going and it will
continue for some time.
- Until when?
- Two things
are needed. Belarusians must awake, their own feel of dignity must get
awaken in them. This is very important. And Putin’s regime must run out
of money. Judging by the whole world’s unification against Russia, we
must not wait too long…
As to Belarusians: many, who live close to
Poland and Lithuania and go there often, see that prices are 2-3 times
lower there, they understand a lot, but they won’t come out to protest!
This is a phenomenon.
- The fear of repressions that people
have should also be considered. There are 7 times as much policemen in
Belarus than it was in the USSR. But Let us come back to the Square
manifestation. In 2006 you made a film with the same name. The film’s
characters say that coming out to protest was a turning point and the
main event in their lives.
- Yes, this was the main event in
their lives, because they did what they had to do. Many of them spent
jail time, many got expelled or fired. You were jailed in 2010. I think
that today you, and Dzima Bandarenka, and
Andrei Sannikov, and
Ira Khalip
are happy for one simple reason – you did what you had to do. You have
nothing to reprimand yourself of. This is the thing. And the people, who
went out to the Square to protest in 2006 and 2010 also did well, they
can also be proud of themselves.
It is very important not to miss
such a moment, rise above yourself and your fears. It is clear that it
is bad in prison, uncomfortable, but it is necessary to disregard this.
- Is there any alternative to a Square protest in terms of brining changes to Belarus?
- No. Except, may be, for one – the death of the main character. He has grabbed onto power like a bug and will not give it up.
Viktor Shenderovich
wrote the following about dictators like this: “Putin cannot get his
hands of the sinecure, off the steering wheel, because as soon as he
does people will come to take his fingerprints”. It is the same here.
Too many crimes have been committed, too many people killed.
Apart
from that, let us speak honestly: in terms of economy Belarus has
already been given up to Russia. Long and tedious work is required in
order to try to win back the real sovereignty. It is the most terrible
thing that Lukashenka did to our country in 20 year. On paper the
sovereignty exists, but in reality it does not.
- Several years
ago you filmed a prophetic documentary “Lobotomy” about the
Russia-Georgia war. You spoke of how Russia population gets brainwashed
by propaganda. It seemed an overstatement then, but today it is a real
problem.
- I would enjoy telling you that I am such a smart
person and could foresee everything in advance. It is not like that.
Documentaries are an amazing thing. They built themselves, they speak
for themselves. It was a revelation for me too.
I may be mistaken
in documentaries, but I never lie. It was the truth that told us what
would be. Documentary filmmaking is an incredibly interesting thing.
Already
back in 2009 I knew absolutely for sure that Russia will attack Crimea.
In many interviews I then said it in regards to the Mistrals, I made
warnings: expect them to appear in Crimea. This followed from the logic
of my documentary, the truth that it laid upon. Only those can
understand me, who made documentaries…
- How did Putin manage
to lobotomy the whole country in such a short term, to deprive such a
tremendous number of people of the ability to think?
- It is terrible! When
Zianon Pazniak
used to say that Belarus is a modeling facility, a testing ground for
Russia, I used to laugh, I would think he was crazy. But Zianon turned
out to have been right.
I remember 1997. I show the documentary,
explain that Lukashenka is a dictator, that you would cry because of
him, and they tell me: “Why do you worry so much? There is a great
democratic Russia nearby! Everything will be well with you! Your local
dictator will have no choice. Look how it is great in Russia already:
there are oligarchs there already! Berezovskiy, Gusinskiy…” And where
this Berezovskiy is now?
I would then respond that it was very
dangerous to count on that. It is obvious that Belarus is small and
Russia is big. But any virus is small and a body is big. A virus can
kill this body. It was obvious that Russia would take our path, and it
did. If you look how it did it, what measures were taken, you will
notice that this is an absolutely complete repetition of Lukashenka’s
steps.
Had Europe acted tough on Lukashenka back then, boycotted
him, halted all the trade relations – he would not have make it! He
would have got destroyed by Russians themselves!
So one should not
now say that we, the opposition, are weak. For all these years we have
been fighting the Russian money, which is huge. All our oppositionists
struggle to find some mere dozen thousand dollars for campaign materials
and stuff like that, but they face Russian billions. This is the most
terrible thing.
I am curious, for example, whether the former head of the OSCE observation mission
Hans-Georg Wieck
understands that there is blood of Belarusian oppositionists on his
hands too among others? In 1999 he assured Belarusians that a round
table should be arranged with the authorities.
Does the Euronews
TV channel realize the whole responsibility for what is taking place in
Ukraine? I read the blogs of Russian paratroopers, young men, who go to
fight in Ukraine on the side of the separatists. One of the main
arguments is the events in Odessa.
I intentionally recorded the
Euronews piece about the events in Odessa. This is fascinating. There is
the start of the events. There is the final part. But the main part –
as there was an attack on the Euromaidan, as they started to shoot, when
there was the first victim among those, who simply walked down the
street with Ukrainian flags – is missing. (By the way, a day before the
tragedy the Anti-maidan walked around with flags and no one touched
them!). They did not tell about this, the did not look deep into the
situation, they intentionally mixed the facts… How many liters of blood
does the Euronews have on it?
So one must understand that no one is perfect, and neither is Europe.
- I know that you have an idea to make a film titled “The seduction of Europe”. What could this documentary be about?
-
About how pro-Russian lobbyists, Russian ways of doing business by the
means of bribery and embezzlement is making its way to settle in Europe.
In Belarus we would get indignant about the corruption schemes
involving solvents and thinners, we would accuse (rightly accuse) the
Belarusian authorities of that, but no one even once asked the question:
who was their partner in the West? Who received it all? It would not
have been possible without Europeans.
It is clear that Russia was
involved in the scheme. But today we know that due to the sanctions the
transit Belarus becomes the main field for dirty games. And Europe may
turn its blind eye to this for the sake of money paid to bureaucrats.
I
would very much like to make such a film, but, considering the
harshness of the topic, it must be based upon legally perfect facts. For
that I need enormous legal resources, private detective agencies. This
is very expensive, I am not going to find that kind of money. Although, I
should make it.
Yes, the Malaysian Boeing, this tragedy cleared the heads of many. But I am afraid that this is not for long.
-
Ukraine’s new authorities suggested Belarus as a negotiation ground for
talks with Russia, although today it is a ground for the deployment of
Russian troops and military equipment.
- They repeat
Saakashvili’s mistake. He also tried to balance between values and
economic benefits. But if you have come to power by declaring moral and
ethical values, you must not betray those. Why do I love the founding
fathers of the USA? They managed to organize the state in sucha way that
even after hundreds of years the USA does not step away from the
principles of freedom and democracy. This is what Saakashvili could not
understand and so far cannot Poroshenko.
Russia does its trade via
Belarus by paying an interest to Lukashenka. Now grey schemes will
flourish. The dictator will be able to make a fortune on contraband. It
will be god knows what here. This is very sad, because Belarus deserves
better.
Of course, we are all mortal, and so are these
authorities. They will pass, but what will be left after them? This is
the question.
- You have a touching film “In the search of
Yiddish” telling the story of Belarusian Jews, made together with
Aliaksandr Haradnitski. How would you asses Israel today’s policy toward
Belarus?
- As to the “In the search of Yiddish” documentary:
Belarus has a lot to learn from Israel. For example, how the language
was revived. Belarusians must too revive the language so everyone
started speaking it.
As to Israel: after the words that there are
political prisoners in Belarus, but only criminals, I have got very
disappointed of the Israel’s ambassador to Belarus. I am an old Odessa
hooligan, and if I get near to
Iosif Shagal, I may not restrain myself…
I
think that this is a scoundrel, who has nothing to do with the great
state of Israel and by some mistake ended up as an ambassador to
Belarus. He should be deprived of the name, spat in the face and kicked
out of the country.
- The day before I asked you about the
atmosphere in Minsk and you answered that there were too many
low-educated delinquents. Is this the outcome of Lukashenka and Russian
propaganda?
- This is a disaster. 20 year ago I started making
the “Common president” film. Now the children, who were born then, are
20 years old. What did these authorities want of them, what did they
teach them? The Youth Union, the scale of values, on which the greatest
one is Lukashenka with his bald spot and illiteracy…
I am not
saying that they managed to fool everyone. There is a large number of
highly intellectual well-educated young people, but the delinquents
command the parade, who wander around the city after a hockey or
football game and scream “Hooray!”, pull this red-green rag behind them,
the name of which is “sunset over a swamp”, and know no history of the
country they live in.
They were born and brought up by this
regime, and we will have to take a long time to bring these people to
senses by explaining what is what.
- In one way or another you
too, part in all the presidential elections in Belarus: you worked for
the teams of Domash and Hancharyk in 2001, in 2006 you supported
Milinkievich, in 2010 – Andrei Sannikov. What, in your view, should be
the strategy of the opposition in the 2015 elections?
- I am absolutely sure that in the 2015 elections everything will be falsified and counted the way they need it.
Apart from this, in the 2010 elections
Andrei Sannikov
won. At least, this politician was making it into the second round, and
had there been a second round – he would definitely have won. Another
presidential candidate
Mikalaj Statkievich is still in prison. That is why it does not seem fair the public and to myself to participate in these elections.
They
must be boycotted, boycotted by everyone in a peaceful way – not to go
vote and that is it. I think there will be no Square protest after these
elections, because the Ukrainian events have strongly scared the
people. But there is no other way to achieve the truth.
That is why one must spit on these authorities and take no part in the silly show.
- What should we expect after 2015?
-
The collapse of the Putin regime, followed by the collapse of the
Lukashenka regime. Practice has shown that it all depends on the
situation in Russia. Even if by god’s will Lukashenka passes away and
gets off the helm, another one will emerge in a moment. Very serious
changes are needed.
But one should not get sad. Look how Europe
lives. Everything is well there, only a bit boring. There is nothing to
fight. So they fight the global warming and other stuff… With something
that has been made up, because all the problems have been solved.
We,
on the other hand, are having exciting times! You may become a fighter,
may become a person, get a name in the history. You can do a lot today.
The times when there were Kalinouski, and Kasciushka before that – this
is the kind of times we are having now! May be, guy, you will do
something that books will later be written about. You may become
unforgettable people. One should not hide, one should fight and win!
- Meet to at the Belarusian Maidan?
-
Meet you in the Belarusian Square in a free Belarus. I hope to live to
that moment and see it all. I hope, we will live long and happily in our
own country and will have everything we need.
Kilde: http://charter97.org/en/news/2014/8/7/110210/
- Vi er klare til å komme med svært sterke og klare tiltak, men døra
holdes åpen for en politisk løsning. Det gir ingen mening med noen ny
kald krig, sa EU-kommisjonens president Jose Manuel Barroso på en felles
pressekonferanse med Ukrainas president Petro Porosjenko i Brussel
lørdag, ifølge NTB.
